Comments - Latest Popular Stories, Instablogs Community by Ben-h

Dan

Dan — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

In fact Palestinians are not fighting for a Palestinian state rather they are fighting to eliminate the Israel from the globe. How can we think of a solution to the problem?

Peace Watcher

Peace Watcher — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

In fact, Bibi did not offer any new things he partly agreed to Oslo, but he did not offer any solution to the main problems, the illegal settlement and Jerusalem.

As long as the occupation exists peace will be missing.

Michael Davison

Michael Davison — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

Peace Watcher:

The ”occupation” and Jerusalem are not and never were the main obstacles to peace.

The ONLY main obstacle is tha Arab refusal to accept any non-Arab non-Muslim state in its midst, period.

Even though their own ”holy book”, the Qur’an, specifically states that it is the ”land of the Jews”, they refuse to accept it– and it would not matter if it’s a Jewish state, a Christian state, a Buddhist state or a state based on a religion founded by men from Mars.

Peace Watcher

Peace Watcher — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

Back to the same tone Michael,

It is the occupation, the Israelis wish to empty the land of the Palestinians.

I can see you have no solution in mind to this conflict, so let me ask you one question:

Michel, Could you Please define your country ”Israel” Borders to me and to the other readers in this World Wide Web?

Pierre P.

Pierre P. — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

Of course, terrorists need no own state-they need a state of terror tound a globe.

Peace Watcher

Peace Watcher — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

Terrorists, who are the terrorists?

Are you saying that the 4 millions Palestinians in the occupied land plus more than 6 million extra in refuge camps in the Israel surrounding countries are all Terrorists.

Hoe much do you know about this conflict?

How can you categorize all those people as Terrorists?

How about the Israelis who are illegally occupying the Palestinians land, cutting it to bits and pieces with illegal Jews only settlements and roads and imposing all kind of apartheid laws against the hopeless people to push them to leave their homes and land?

I advise you to educate yourself about the issue before throwing such irresponsible comments.

Michael Davison

Michael Davison — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

Same crap, another day. Some people just can’t get out of the mind-set they’re in, and continue to assign their own emotions, morals, ambitions and expectations to others who couldn’t be more different if they tried.

Why should the Palestinians want their own country?

As it is, there’s no reason to work, support their own children, get an education, learn a useful trade or live useful lives—the international community (and people like you) excuse their every action, no matter how murderous, no matter how outrageous.

They’ve got it made. Why would they want a country that would burden them with commitments under international laws?

PW: “Could you Please define your country ‘Israel’ Borders to me and to the other readers in this World Wide Web?”

Do you want to know what they are, what they could have been, or what they should have been in the first place? Please be specific.

At present, Israel’s borders are only defined where it abuts Egypt and Jordan, the countries we’ve signed peace treaties with. All other “borders” are mere cease-fire lines, defined in 1949 with a green pencil for the West Bank and Gaza and with a purple pencil in the case of Lebanon and Syria.

IF the British Empire had been honest in its dealings in the Middle East, the real border would have run along the Jordan River and down its present path from the Dead Sea to the Gulf of Aqaba/Eilat, with “Palestine” (or some other name) being on the eastern side and Israel on the west. The League of Nations Mandate for Palestine specified the establishment of one Arab state and one Jewish state from the Mandate land, not two Arab states. What is now Jordan made up 80% of the Palestine Mandate, which would have been a more or less honest division according to the relative populations of the time- 80% for the Arab state and 20% for the Jewish state.

Unfortunately, the British acted as they usually did, with their “divide and conquer” policy, just the way they did in all their other colonies, protectorates, mandates, etc.

The British government didn’t even expect the UN to vote FOR partition in 1947—they fully expected that the UN would renew their mandate and allow them to crack down on both the Arabs and the Jews in Palestine. For them, the vote in favor of partition was the biggest surprise since “ma caught her tits in the wringer” (not my words, but those of an acquaintance’s father who had served as a British Army officer in Palestine in the 1940s).

Most uninformed people believe that the history of Palestine began only after WW II, but we have to start earlier for the sake of accuracy.

There are certain documents you should read (not just scan or read about, but read the original documents, word for word):

League of Nations Mandate for Palestine

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/palmanda.asp

Learn just what the Palestine Mandate was supposed to be and how the British violated almost every single clause.

UN General Assembly Resolution 181 (The partition of Palestine)

Learn just what it was the Arabs refused and went to war over.

UN General Assembly Resolution 194 (Cease-fire and negotiation for a permanent peace)

Learn why it was never realized due to Arab rejectionism.

UN Security council Resolution 242 (Cease-fire and negotiation for a permanent settlement)

Learn why it was never realized due to Arab rejectionism.

UN Security Council 338 (Cease-fire and negotiation for a permanent peace)

Learn why it was never realized due to Arab rejectionism.

These are all available in their original form at the official UN website.

Then go and read the Palestinian National Charter (1964 Version). You can find it at http://www.un.int/palestine/PLO/PNA2.html

Now check out the Palestinian National Charter (1968 Version). You can find that at: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/plocov.asp

Compare them carefully, clause by clause, word for word.

Finally, go read the Hamas Covenant (1988). You’ll find that at: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

Read this carefully, compare it to the behavior of Hamas today and draw your own conclusions.

PW: “Terrorists, who are the terrorists?”

Terrorists are the people who murder indiscriminately, both their enemies and their friends, who target civilians knowingly and consistently violate every clause of the conventions of war at every opportunity.

Not all Palestinians are terrorists, just as not all Arabs/Muslims are terrorists—those Palestinians who are not terrorists or terror supporters suffer more at the hands of their own people (terrorists) than they ever did at the hands of any other administration, Israel included.

PW: “I advise you to educate yourself about the issue before throwing such irresponsible comments.”

For this comment alone, sir, you should have been a comedian. Your own comments are so full of propaganda buzzwords and slogans that it’s just impossible to take you seriously—and I have no illusion that you’ll bother to try to educate yourself on this topic—I expect you to continue just as you began, on you principle of, “My mind’s made up, don’t confuse me with facts.”

Peace Watcher

Peace Watcher — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

WOW,

I asked you a simple question: What are the borders of your country?

I and got all that rubbish.

Any other citizen in any other country in this world will have a definitive answer in one line, but in your case it was an article with borders colored in black, green, red and some other colors.

And sure you are still talking about pushing the 4 millions Palestinians in west of the Jordanian river to the east of it in an ethnic cleansing plan at its best and denying the 6 millions in the refugee camps any right of return or compensations.

What an answer!!!!!!

Israel is occupying other people lands and most of the Israelis are believing its their own land given to them by their God, so its hard for you or any Israelis to define a legitimate borders unless they don’t care about what the world will see in their definition.

However, Lets try this one more time.

Could you draw a map of your Israel to me, or have a link to it anywhere on the net, so we can discuss it?

Michael Davison

Michael Davison — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

Peace Watcher:

I’m SO sorry the answer was beyond your ability to understand. That often happens when a simple person demands an answer to a complex question. I’ll put this in small, simple words—maybe then, you’ll understand…

The “borders” with Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are NOT “borders”.

They are truce lines penciled in by UN observers, expressing the existing front lines at the time of the truce.

UN resolutions state that these lines are the starting points for negotiations aimed as fixing permanent borders as part of an overall peace.

Since Lebanon and Syria have never seriously negotiated, these lines remain truce lines, not defined borders.

For Gaza and the West Bank, until Israeli and Palestinian negotiators reach some kind of final agreement, the truce lines remain just that—not “borders”.

Unless and until a final, lasting peace is made with Lebanon, Syria and the Palestinians, the only fixed borders Israel has are with Jordan and Egypt.

Is that clear enough for you?

PW: “And sure you are still talking about pushing the 4 millions Palestinians in west of the Jordanian river to the east of it in an ethnic cleansing plan at its best and denying the 6 millions in the refugee camps any right of return or compensations.”

Four + six = ten million Palestinians? Not even the Palestinian Authority makes a claim for half that number… This would require something like a 40% birth rate annually, with no deaths, for the past 60 years. Index Mundi places the highest birth rate in the world (UAE) at less than 4% per annum. This doesn’t even take into account the corruption and false counts of Palestinian population that even the Palestinian Authority admits.

PW: “Israel is occupying other people lands and most of the Israelis are believing its their own land given to them by their God, so its hard for you or any Israelis to define a legitimate borders unless they don’t care about what the world will see in their definition.”

Most Israelis? My, you must be a mind-reader—no polls or surveys have reached that conclusion. In fact, “most Israelis”, according to real polls and surveys, are in favor of a two-state solution, but NOT if the Palestinian state doesn’t live up to one particular condition laid down in more than one UN resolution: “Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.” (UN Resolution 194, Article 11.)

I have yet to see any Palestinian representative state that any Palestinians wish to live in peace with Israel, whether they live inside or outside the finalized borders of Israel, whenever they are determined. Hamas has bluntly stated that they will “never make peace with Israel”—and if you haven’t noticed, they are the democratically elected government of the Palestinians, even though their behavior and actions since the elections have been anything BUT “democratic”.

Exactly what country’s land is Israel “occupying”? Under international law, they are called “disputed territories” and their “ownership” is just that—disputed.

Now let’s go on to the question of “compensation”:

First, any compensation agreement would also have to include the Jewish refugees from Arab lands—a refugee population wholly created by Arab governments.

Second, Arab countries would have to participate in the compensation to Palestinians as well, since many of the Palestinian refugees left under their urging long before Israel was established— According to a research report by the Arab-sponsored Institute for Palestine Studies in Beirut, “the majority” of the Arab refugees in 1948 were not expelled, and “68% left without seeing an Israeli soldier.”

“I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the Arab States in opposing partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously, and they must share in the solution of the problem.” Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leader of the Palestinian Arabs, in a Beirut newspaper, also reported in the Daily Telegraph on September 6, 1948.

“The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in.” (Jordan Daily Newspaper, Ad Dijaa, September 6, 1954.)

“Since 1948 Arab leaders have used the Palestine people for selfish political purposes.” King Hussein of Jordan (1960)

These admissions from Arab sources should convince even you that the Arab governments should share the responsibility for compensating the Palestinian refugees.

In short, there’s a lot you have to learn—and so much you either don’t know or don’t WANT to know.

Peace Watcher

Peace Watcher — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

I admit you can -still- surprise me,

I told you before that the problems are in the details, and as I can see we have a lot which we don’t agree on.

4, 6 or 10 millions Palestinians, truce lines or borders, Occupied lands or disputed territories, oh god you are good at playing with world.

OK,

Lets try this a third time: What are the borders of your country Mr. Michael as you think it should be and who could be within these borders?

I hope I made my questions easy on you this time!.

Michael Davison

Michael Davison — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

PW: “I told you before that the problems are in the details, and as I can see we have a lot which we don’t agree on.”

Wrong again. The problems are not in the “details”, unless you consider a commitment by the Palestinians to live in peace, as per UN GA Resolution 194, a “detail”. There’s a lot you and I don’t agree on, but I don’t have to live next to you. However, I will have to live next to a Palestinian state—and you won’t.

PW: “4, 6 or 10 millions Palestinians, truce lines or borders, Occupied lands or disputed territories, oh god you are good at playing with world.”

To understand the conflict and have an intelligent, informed opinion, one has to understand these words and their implications. I’m sorry if it’s too complex for you.

PW: “Lets try this a third time: What are the borders of your country Mr. Michael as you think it should be and who could be within these borders?”

Finally, you’ve asked an intelligent question. Congratulations!

Remember, you’ve asked for my opinion— so you’ll get it.

The first thing I would do is investigate ALL the claims of land ownership, Arab claims inside pre-1967 Israel and Jewish claims outside that area, west of the Jordan River. Shaking a key in front of a TV camera and shouting is not proof of ownership in any court of law. This will do three things: it will separate the genuine claims from the lies, and will define the amount of compensation required by each side. Naturally, the rules of evidence prevalent in any land dispute will be in effect.

As a fringe benefit, it will also neutralize any and all Arab claims by individuals who lived in Gaza or the West Bank before 1948—in my opinion, people who never moved an inch are not refugees, and never were.

Negotiations between the two parties can begin when the exact claims are on record and verified. The Etzion Bloc, if it remains part of Israel (and I believe it should), will be offset by an equal land area taken from within the Israeli side of the truce lines. The same will be true of any other area of dispute—land for an equal area of land.

Accept the fact that Jerusalem is non-negotiable. The only administration that has allowed free access to the holy sites of all religions is Israel; neither Jordan, the British, the Ottomans nor any other administration, Arab or Christian, respected the rights of either the Jews or each other in this area. Muslim holy places can and should remain under the direct control of the Waqf, just as Christian sites can and should remain under the direct control of their respective churches. The Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Coptic, Roman Catholic and other Christian churches will have to settle their disputes regarding who gets what among themselves.

The Muslim claim to Jerusalem as its “third most holy place” just doesn’t hold water—Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Qur’an by its Muslim name even once, during the years Jordan controlled Jerusalem, no Arab head of state or Islamic dignitary made any kind of state visit to Jerusalem and the Jordanian government turned it into an armed camp between 1948 and 1967. The claim of Mohammed’s “Night Ride” is based on one interpretation of a dream he supposedly had—and there are other interpretations for the same dream. On the other hand, physical evidence in the form of archeological artifacts prove beyond a doubt that Jerusalem has been a Jewish city for more than 3,000 years, no matter who controlled the land.

Residents of settlements left outside the final borders of Israel will get the choice of becoming Palestinian citizens or moving back inside Israel’s borders; it’s not likely that many will want to become Palestinian citizens. The same will hold true for any Israeli Arabs who find their residences becoming part of Palestine, if they prefer not to become Palestinians. Palestinian Arabs who can prove land ownership can, if they wish, resettle on their land (if the land was appropriated, they can receive an equivalent parcel of land) or accept compensation according to a mutually agreed-upon assessment conducted by a disinterested third party. Israeli citizenship might also require a simple declaration of an intention to live in peace—no “loyalty oath” á la Lieberman is needed. A similar declaration would be required of those settlers returning to live in Israel.

Naturally, this is all dependent on a few basic conditions: first and foremost, that the Palestinians “get their act together” and decide who their elected government is. They can choose between two separate countries (1. Gaza; 2. West Bank) with two governments or a single country made up of Gaza and the West Bank with one government. A single Palestine with two governments is not an option.

Another condition is that the Palestinian government(s) understand that peace means not sending rockets, mortar bombs or suicide bombers into Israel—and that any of these acts will be considered an act of war and responded to accordingly. The equation will be very simple: Leave Israel alone and Israel will leave you alone.

A few footnotes:

1. I would encourage those Arab countries that revoked the citizenship of migrants who lived in Palestine prior to 1948 to reconsider their decision and allow them and their descendants who wish to return to their native countries to do so.

2. Compensation for the Jewish refugees from the Arab countries who were expelled, disenfranchised and divested of all their personal and communal assets by those Arab states is also encouraged.

3. Once there is an agreement that both sides can live with, commerce and relations can be normalized. Israel has a lot of know-how to share about living in a water-poor, natural resource-poor land. The Palestinians should take advantage of that know-how.

Of course, this is all based on one single assumption: that a Palestinian government that genuinely wants to make peace with Israel arises and sits down to negotiate in good faith—and that an Israeli government can do the same.

That’s my opinion, at least the main points of it.

Peace Watcher

Peace Watcher — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

OK,

To sum up, I understand that you see the borders of 1967 lines as the bases for the final borders of Israel and Palestine and Arab nations.

Any minor alteration in one area of the border should be compensated by similar alteration in the other side in a suitable location.

Any land claims will be put to court and refugee (Palestinians and Israelis) will be allowed to return or to get a fair compensations.

People left at the wrong -not what they prefer- side of the border can have the option to decide where to live.

Israel to withdraw from the Golan Heights.

Israel to withdraw from Sha’ba Farms.

Borders and airfield are under the control of their countries.

Jerusalem, is under the Israeli control but it will allow free access to Muslims and other to their holy places.

I think this is the perfect Peace deal.

Did I get anything wrong?

Note:

————-

”On the other hand, physical evidence in the form of archeological artifacts prove beyond a doubt that Jerusalem has been a Jewish city for more than 3,000 years, no matter who controlled the land.”

I would update this to:

”On the other hand, physical evidence in the form of archeological artifacts prove beyond a doubt that Jerusalem was a Jewish city before 3,000 years, and the Jews controlled the land for 300 years out of these 3000 years”

Michael Davison

Michael Davison — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

PW: “Did I get anything wrong?”

You sure did. The Golan Heights (of which the Sha’aba Farms are a part) and the Sha’aba Farms themselves are separate issues having nothing to do with the Palestinians.

Regarding the Sha’aba Farms, Syria and Lebanon will have to agree whose territory it is—both of them claim it. They can either spit it up between them, or make it all Lebanon or all Syria, but they’ll have to make up their minds. According to UN surveyors, the Sha’aba Farms are Syrian territory. That was the UN’s basis for declaring that Israel had withdrawn entirely from Lebanon in 2000.

The southern part of the Golan Heights will also be a very thorny issue—it was part of the Palestine Mandate until Great Britain ceded it (illegally) to the French Mandate of Syria/Lebanon in 1923. There’s a lot of archeological evidence that it was part of the Jewish territory for hundreds of years, including the ruins of no less than 29 synagogues, several towns and dozens of small villages. Syria’s history of rule in this part of the Golan lasted no more than 44 years (1923-1967).

Please don’t change my words regarding Jerusalem. I said exactly what I meant.

Other than that, you got the message.

Just remember, this is MY opinion, and MY solution—not that of anyone else.

Peace Watcher

Peace Watcher — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

Sure, but at least we agreed on some bases.

”Please don’t change my words regarding Jerusalem. I said exactly what I meant.”

I said ”I would update this to:” this is my opinion.

I see how hard it is when your believes challenged with pure math and historical statics numbers.

Peace Watcher

Peace Watcher — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

*History of Jerusalem*

-from a pro-Israel website.

Around the year 1010 B.C.E., King David defeated the Jebusites in Jerusalem and decided to make the city his administrative capital. When he brought the Ark of the Covenant to the city, he stripped the Twelve Tribes of the spiritual source of their power and concentrated it in his own hands.

King David wanted to build a great Temple for God as a permanent resting place for the Ark of the Covenant. According to Jewish tradition, David was not permitted to build the Temple because he had been a warrior. The task was to fall to a man of peace, David’s son, Solomon. The Temple would become the focus of Jewish veneration from that point to the present.

After Solomon died in 931 B.C.E., a civil war led to a split in the Israelite nation. Jerusalem became part of the southern kingdom of Judah, while ten of the northern tribes formed the new kingdom of Israel. That kingdom lasted until 722 B.C.E., when it was conquered by the Assyrians.

Exile

Israel Fact

If you think modern punishments are harsh, after his defeat by Nebuchadnezzar, Zedekiah’s sons were murdered in front of him and then his eyes were gouged out.

Meanwhile, Judah staved off the Assyrians and other potential invaders until the Babylonian King, Nebuchadnezzar, led his army into Jerusalem and captured the city in 597 B.C.E. He deported thousands of Jews and appointed 21-year-old Zedekiah, a descendant of King David, to serve as king, expecting him to be a puppet ruler. Zedekiah had different ideas, however, and mounted a revolt. After an eighteen-month siege, Nebuchadnezzar razed Jerusalem. Most of the population was deported to Babylon in 586 B.C.E.

In 560 B.C.E. a new empire emerged, the Persians, led by Cyrus the Great. Cyrus conquered Palestine and then unexpectedly told the Jews they could return to their homeland. While he was probably motivated primarily by the desire to have someone else rebuild Palestine and to make it a source of income for the Persian Empire, the impact on the Jews was to reinvigorate their faith and stimulate them to reconstruct the Temple. The Second Temple was completed in 516 B.C. Over the next 150 years, Judea flourished as the Jews rebuilt Jerusalem and developed the surrounding areas.

Israel Fact

The family of Mattathias became known as the Maccabees, from the Hebrew word for ”hammer,” because they were said to strike hammer blows against their enemies. The family is more commonly known as the Hasmoneans.

In 332 B.C.E. a new power swept through the Middle East. This time it was Alexander the Great who became Palestine’s ruler and introduced Greek culture and ideals — Hellenism. Though many Jews had been seduced by the virtues of Hellenism, the extreme measures adopted over the years helped unite the people. When a Greek official tried to force a priest named Mattathias to make a sacrifice to a pagan god, the Jew murdered the man. Responding to Greek reprisals, the Jews rose up in 167 B.C.E. behind Mattathias and his five sons and fought for their liberation. Three years later, Jerusalem was recaptured from the Greeks by the Maccabees and the Temple purified, an event that gave birth to the holiday of Chanukah.

The last Jewish kingdom survived only 76 years. The grandsons of the Maccabees who had won Jewish independence lost it in large part because of their jealousy and greed. In all likelihood however, with their own empire expanding, the Romans would not have permitted the Jews to keep their kingdom much longer anyway. After three years of fighting, Herod’s Roman-backed army wrested control of Jerusalem and the rest of Judea from the Jews in 63 B.C.E.

Rome Rebuilds the Temple

The most significant of Herod’s projects was the rebuilding of the Second Temple in the first century B.C.E. It took 10,000 people and a thousand priests nine years to complete the project. The original Temple of King Solomon was a relatively small building on top of Mount Moriah. Herod doubled the area of the Temple Mount and surrounded it with four massive retaining walls. The western wall is the longest, about 1600 feet (485 meters), and includes the Jewish area of prayer known as the Kotel or Western Wall.

In 66 A.D., after the procurator Florus provoked the Jews through a variety of activities that ranged from stealing silver from the Temple to desecrating the vestments of the High Priest, the Zealots started a revolt. The Jews initially met with success, routing Roman armies in Jerusalem, but the Romans returned with a larger force. The Jews hoped to hold off the Romans in fortified Jerusalem, but they began a fratricidal battle in which the Zealots murdered Jewish leaders who refused to go along with their rebellion. The Romans laid siege to the city and in the year 70 A.D. overwhelmed the remaining defenders and destroyed the Second Temple. Some of the Zealots escaped and made their last stand at Masada.

Though the mighty Romans had been held at bay for four years, their ultimate victory was never in doubt and the consequences of the Jews’ defeat was devastating. Not only was the Temple destroyed, but perhaps as many as one million Jews were killed and many survivors enslaved.

Israel Fact

Scholars now believe Jesus Christ was born between 4 and 7 B.C.E. and was crucified either in 30 or 33 C.E. Like other major figures in religious history (including Moses and Mohammed), little is known about Christ’s childhood beyond the fact that he visited Jerusalem when he was about 12. He does not reappear in the Gospel until he is 30, when he is baptized by John the Baptist.

After the suppression of the Jewish revolt, relative calm settled on the Holy Land for nearly 60 years. The Emperor Hadrian had even talked at one point of rebuilding the Temple. He did build a temple; however, it was in honor of Jupiter rather than the god of the Jews. He also renamed Jerusalem Aelia Capitolina and made it a Roman city.

This insult, along with other indignities that went along with being Roman subjects, provoked yet another rebellion beginning in 132 A.D., this time under the charismatic leadership of Simeon Bar-Kokhba. It took nearly three years for the Romans to pacify the country and, when they were done, roughly 600,000 Jews were dead (including Bar-Kokhba) and Judea had been devastated. The Emperor renamed the entire province Syria Palaestina, Jerusalem became a pagan city that Jews were forbidden to enter, and the persecution of Judaism became widespread.

After the destruction of the Second Temple, the center of Jewish life shifted from Jerusalem to Yavneh, where Yochanan ben Zakkai established an academy to train scholars. Meanwhile, the influence of Christianity began to grow in the region, culminating in 330 C.E. with Emperor Constantine’s decision to move the capital of the empire from Rome to the city of Byzantium, which he renamed Constantinople (now Istanbul).

The Rise of Islam

The Islamic conquest of Palestine, which began in 633, was the beginning of a 1,300-year span during which more than ten different empires, governments, and dynasties were to rule in the Holy Land prior to the British occupation after World War I.

In 638, the Jews in Palestine assisted the Muslim forces in defeating the Persians who had reneged on an agreement to protect them and allow them to resettle in Jerusalem. As a reward for their assistance, the Muslims permitted the Jews to return to Jerusalem and to guard the Temple Mount.

The Muslims fended off their rivals until the end of the 11th century. In 1095, Pope Urban II called for Crusades to regain Palestine from the infidels. They succeeded in 1099 and celebrated by herding all the Jews into a synagogue and burning them alive. Non-Christians were subsequently barred from the city.

Saladin succeeded in expelling the Crusaders and recaptured Jerusalem for the Muslims in 1187. Two years later, the Christians mounted the Third Crusade to retake Jerusalem, but Saladin’s forces repelled them.

Here Come the Turks

The next important phase in the history of Jerusalem was the conquest of the Ottoman Turks at the beginning of the sixteenth century. The Turkish sultan then became responsible for Jerusalem. The Holy Land was important to the Turks only as a source of revenue; consequently, like many of their predecessors, they allowed Palestine to languish. They also began to impose oppressive taxes on the Jews.

Neglect and oppression gradually took their toll on the Jewish community and the population declined to a total of no more than 7,000 by the end of the seventeenth century. It wasn’t until the nascent Zionist movement in Eastern Europe motivated Jews to return to Palestine that the first modern Jewish settlement was established — in Petah Tikvah in 1878.

The Ottoman Empire held its own against rivals from Europe and Asia for roughly 400 years. They chose, however, to engage in a battle they could not win — World War I — and lost their empire. Palestine was captured by the British, who subsequently were awarded a mandate from the League of Nations to rule the country.

Politics & Religion Mix

Ever since King David made Jerusalem the capital of Israel 3,000 years ago, the city has played a central role in Jewish existence. The Western Wall in the Old City — the last remaining wall of the ancient Jewish Temple, the holiest site in Judaism — is the object of Jewish veneration and the focus of Jewish prayer. Three times a day for thousands of years Jews have prayed, “To Jerusalem, thy city, shall we return with joy,” and have repeated the Psalmist’s oath: “If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.”

Jews have been living in Jerusalem continuously for nearly two millennia. They have constituted the largest single group of inhabitants there since the 1840’s (map of Jerusalem in 1912). Today, the total population of Jerusalem is approximately 662,000. The Jewish population in areas formerly controlled by Jordan exceeds 160,000, outnumbering Palestinians in ”Arab” East Jerusalem.

The Dome of the Rock

Muslims also revere the Holy City. According to Islam, the prophet Mohammed was miraculously transported from Mecca to Jerusalem, and it was from there that he made his ascent to heaven. Still, despite controlling the city for more than a thousand years, Jerusalem was never the capital of any Arab entity. In fact, it was a backwater for most of Arab history.

For Christians, Jerusalem is the place where Jesus lived, preached, died, and was resurrected. While it is the heavenly rather than the earthly Jerusalem that is emphasized by the Church, places mentioned in the New Testament as the sites of his ministry and passion have drawn pilgrims and devoted worshipers for centuries.

A City Divided

When the United Nations took up the Palestine question in 1947, it recommended that all of Jerusalem be internationalized. The Jewish Agency, after much soul-searching, agreed to accept internationalization in the hope that in the short-run it would protect the city from bloodshed and the new state from conflict. The Arab states were as bitterly opposed to the internationalization of Jerusalem as they were to the rest of the partition plan. Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion, subsequently, declared that Israel would no longer accept the internationalization of Jerusalem.

In May 1948, Jordan invaded and occupied east Jerusalem, dividing the city for the first time in its history, and driving thousands of Jews — whose families had lived in the city for centuries — into exile. For the next 19 years, the city was split, with Israel establishing its capital in western Jerusalem and Jordan occupying the eastern section, which included the Old City and most religious shrines.

In 1950, Jordan annexed all the territory it occupied west of the Jordan River, including east Jerusalem. The other Arab countries denied formal recognition of the Jordanian move, and the Arab League considered expelling Jordan from membership. Eventually, a compromise was worked out by which the other Arab governments agreed to view all the West Bank and east Jerusalem as held ”in trust” by Jordan for the Palestinians.

From 1948-67, the city was divided between Israel and Jordan. Israel made western Jerusalem its capital; Jordan occupied the eastern section. Because Jordan — like all the Arab states at the time — maintained a state of war with Israel, the city became two armed camps, replete with concrete walls and bunkers, barbed-wire fences, minefields and other military fortifications.

Broken grave stones in the Mount of Olives cemetery

In violation of the 1949 Armistice Agreement, Jordan denied Israelis access to the Temple Wall and to the cemetery on the Mount of Olives, where Jews have been burying their dead for 2,500 years. Jordan actually went further and desecrated Jewish holy places. King Hussein permitted the construction of a road to the Intercontinental Hotel across the Mount of Olives cemetery. Hundreds of Jewish graves were destroyed by a highway that could have easily been built elsewhere. The gravestones, honoring the memory of rabbis and sages, were used by the engineer corps of the Jordanian Arab Legion as pavement and latrines in army camps. The ancient Jewish Quarter of the Old City was ravaged, 58 Jerusalem synagogues — some centuries old — were destroyed or ruined, others were turned into stables and chicken coops. Slum dwellings were built abutting the Western Wall.

Jews were not the only ones who found their freedom impeded. Under Jordanian rule, Israeli Christians were subjected to various restrictions, with only limited numbers allowed to visit the Old City and Bethlehem at Christmas and Easter. Because of these repressive policies, many Christians emigrated from Jerusalem, leading their numbers to dwindle from 25,000 in 1949 to less than 13,000 in June 1967.

Jerusalem is Unified

In 1967, Jordan ignored Israeli pleas to stay out of the Six-Day War and attacked the western part of the city. The Jordanians were routed by Israeli forces and driven out of east Jerusalem, allowing the city’s unity to be restored. Teddy Kollek, Jerusalem’s mayor for 28 years, called the reunification of the city ”the practical realization of the Zionist movement’s goals.” Today, a museum devoted to promoting dialogue and coexistence, the Museum on the Seam, is located at the junction of East and West Jerusalem.

Freedom of Religion

The Temple Mount

After the war, Israel abolished all the discriminatory laws promulgated by Jordan and adopted its own tough standard for safeguarding access to religious shrines. ”Whoever does anything that is likely to violate the freedom of access of the members of the various religions to the places sacred to them,” Israeli law stipulates, is ”liable to imprisonment for a term of five years.” Israel also entrusted administration of the holy places to their respective religious authorities.

Muslim rights on the Temple Mount, the site of the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aksa Mosque, have not been infringed, and the holy places are under the supervision of the Muslim Waqf. Although it is the holiest site in Judaism, Israel has left the Temple Mount under the control of Muslim religious authorities.

Since 1967, hundreds of thousands of Muslims and Christians — many from Arab countries that remain in a state of war with Israel — have come to Jerusalem to see their holy places. Arab leaders are free to visit Jerusalem to pray if they wish to, just as Egyptian President Anwar Sadat did at the El-Aksa mosque.

Along with religious freedom, Palestinian Arabs in Jerusalem have unprecedented political rights. Arab residents were given the choice of whether to become Israeli citizens. Most chose to retain their Jordanian citizenship. Moreover, regardless of whether they are citizens, Jerusalem Arabs are permitted to vote in municipal elections and play a role in the administration of the city.

The Final Status of Jerusalem

The Israeli-Palestinian Declaration of Principles (DoP) signed September 13, 1993, leaves open the status of Jerusalem. Other than this agreement to discuss Jerusalem during the final negotiating period, Israel conceded nothing else regarding the status of the city during the interim period. Israel retains the right to build anywhere it chooses in Jerusalem and continues to exercise sovereignty over the undivided city. Meanwhile, the Palestinians maintain that Jerusalem should be the capital of an independent Palestinian state.

Peace Watcher

Peace Watcher — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

I just wonder how 300 years of control in the past history would give the Jews or Israelis the right to claim the city while 1000+ of control for the Muslims does not.

Michael Davison

Michael Davison — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

PW: ”I just wonder how 300 years of control in the past history would give the Jews or Israelis the right to claim the city while 1000+ of control for the Muslims does not.”

I guess you could base it on the behavior of recent years regarding access. Jordan (a Muslim country) denied Christians and Jews access to Jerusalem’s holy sites, even though it was one of the conditions of the cease-fire in 1949. Israel has given free access (subject to security alerts at times) to all religions without a signed agreement.

Peace Watcher

Peace Watcher — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

This is unrelated issue.

You could say that sine the Israelis have the Power now so they will control the city.

It is a matter of power and politics not rights, ownership nor ”land given by God” religion’s fantasy.

Michael Davison

Michael Davison — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

No, Peace Watcher, YOU could say that– or anything else you want to, but that won’t make it true.

I look upon it as a question of who has the better record of allowing religious freedom to all who have their holy sites in Jerusalem, nothing else.

Where I come from, you give the job to the person who’s proved he can do it best.

Peace Watcher

Peace Watcher — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

I don’t think even that your record is working for you, During the occupation, Israel denied access to the holy site for the majority of the people seeking to do their religion duties.

And again, what you say or what I say is our opinion and we both claiming that it is true, but does that make it the real truth? we should leave this to the readers.

Michael Davison

Michael Davison — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

I say we should leave the evidence to speak for itself.

Under Jordanian control, no Christians or Jews were allowed access to their shrines.

Under Israeli control, there are more limitations on Jews visiting the Western Wall than on any other visitors– mostly for security reasons.

PW :”Israel denied access to the holy site for the majority of the people seeking to do their religion duties.”

Can you prove this statement? If you can’t give specific references to denials that were not related to safety (I remember a limitation of 10,000 visitors at one time to the Dome of the Rock/Mosque of Omar- but that’s purely because of the physical area of the site), then you can withdraw your comment and drop the subject.

Peace Watcher

Peace Watcher — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

Jordanian control era was a war era, and things was in a miss.

Israel never make this easy on the Palestinians and the list of restriction is there for you to see.

Every Friday news are talking about restrictions on the Muslims coming to Jerusalem to do their weekly prayer.

It is all over the web, and I am sure you have enough surfing capabilities to find it.

Also as you might did read in the history of Jerusalem that the Muslims actually granted the Jews the freedom to move back to Jerusalem after they were pushed out of the city by the Crusaders.

Michael Davison

Michael Davison — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

PW: ”Also as you might did read in the history of Jerusalem that the Muslims actually granted the Jews the freedom to move back to Jerusalem after they were pushed out of the city by the Crusaders.”

The very fact that you have to go back 1,000 years to finds a time when the Arab/Muslim administration did something decent for the Jews is kind of pathetic.

I already mentioned the restriction of numbers for the Temple Mount’s weekly prayers– if you had ever seen the compound yourself, you’d know that even that’s generous, considering the physical space involved. I can just imagine your reaction if even one Muslim was hurt due to overcrowding.

Peace Watcher

Peace Watcher — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

Michael: ”The very fact that you have to go back 1,000 years to finds a time when the Arab/Muslim administration did something decent for the Jews is kind of pathetic.”

I even find it more pathetic for the Jews to claim a right in Palestine land because they controlled that land 3000 years ago, Same logic you are using, is not it!!!

Michael: ”I already mentioned the restriction of numbers for the Temple Mount’s weekly prayers– if you had ever seen the compound yourself, you’d know that even that’s generous, considering the physical space involved. I can just imagine your reaction if even one Muslim was hurt due to overcrowding.”

These restriction never been put to provide safety to the Muslims during their prayers, ”How peaceful the IDF picture you are trying painting here”

I don’t think a restriction like only 50+ years old or only Palestinians with Jerusalem resident is allowed in rules for example are put for safety issue.

And also picturing the Muslims a animals who the IDF is putting a control in their movement not to hurt themselves is just more pathetic description from you.

My reaction is always the same because Palestinian are being killed on daily bases and the reaction is:

”End the Occupation, Free the People and the land, Stop the ethnic cleansing, and the apartheid system”

Michael Davison

Michael Davison — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

PW: “I even find it more pathetic for the Jews to claim a right in Palestine land because they controlled that land 3000 years ago, Same logic you are using, is not it!!!”

Hardly. In spite of Palestinian claims, there has been a consecutive Jewish presence in the land at all times—it was never “Judenrein” at any time in history, and, at times, had a Jewish majority—proven by Ottoman censuses.

PW: “These restriction never been put to provide safety to the Muslims during their prayers, ‘How peaceful the IDF picture you are trying painting here”

Three things wrong here: first: The IDF does not control the Temple Mount, the Israel Police do. (If you had ever even looked at picture albums of the Temple Mount, you’d know that—different uniforms.) Second: the Police are there because there HAVE been Arab-instigated disturbances in the past, such as overcrowding the limited space inside the compound and Muslim “worshippers” throwing trash and stones on the Jews praying below at the Western Wall. Do the Muslims have the right to do that without interference? Third: how many times have you read of people being crushed or trampled to death in Mecca during the ceremonies? It happens every year, and several hundred have died over the past decade. Can you imagine the Muslim riots around the world if even one Muslim were to die on the Temple Mount for ANY reason—even of natural causes?

PW: “I don’t think a restriction like only 50+ years old or only Palestinians with Jerusalem resident is allowed in rules for example are put for safety issue.’”

Experience has shown that the most likely candidates for creating disturbances (and committing acts of terror) are Muslim men between the ages of 20 and 50—so it does become a safety issue.

PW: “And also picturing the Muslims a animals who the IDF is putting a control in their movement not to hurt themselves is just more pathetic description from you.”

I refer you back to the reports from Mecca during the pilgrimage season—how many die each year during the ceremonies, trampled or crushed to death? Look them up in Arab media, there are stories every year. Draw your own conclusions.

PW: “My reaction is always the same because Palestinian are being killed on daily bases and the reaction is: ‘End the Occupation, Free the People and the land, Stop the ethnic cleansing, and the apartheid system’”

Back to empty slogans and buzzwords… just what you do best.

Learn what “Apartheid” means before you use it. It has nothing to do with conflicts between two countries. Apartheid is a purely internal policy conducted by a government against a sector of its own citizenry. Are you now suggesting that Palestinians are Israelis? Neither side agrees to that.

Isn’t the Palestinian demand that any Palestinian state be Judenrein also highly racist?

Palestinians die almost every day at the hands of other Palestinians—but you never say a word about that. More Palestinians have died at the hands of other Palestinians than have died at the hands of the IDF—even Palestinian Human Rights organizations admit that. Where is your outcry… or do you blame “the Jews” for those deaths, too?

“Ethnic cleansing”? Where are the mass deportations? Where are the mass graves? Where are the “killing fields”? Where are the bodies? None of these exist, so how can there be “ethnic cleansing”? The forced expulsion of 900,000 Jews from Arab countries was “ethnic cleansing”, par excellence. Why don’t you spare a word for those forgotten refugees? To date, the only “ethnic cleansing” has been done by Arabs, not Israelis.

Another empty buzzword: “the Occupation”. If you took the trouble to learn what you’re talking about, you’d find that “the occupation” is a result of the conflict, not the cause. Resolve the conflict and there is no “occupation”.

Peace Watcher

Peace Watcher — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

Hardly. In spite of Palestinian claims, there has been a consecutive Jewish presence in the land at all times—it was never “Judenrein” at any time in history, and, at times, had a Jewish majority—proven by Ottoman censuses.

Jordan is the river name, and the Jordanian nationality came to light after the British mandate.

No one says that the Jews never had a presence in Palestine, but in your words, there has been others living with them, and we call them the Palestinians (the people who lived on the land of Palestine) so why should the Jews have all the land?? and what about the people who lived on it since the state of the civilized world?

IDF, Israeli Police, Israeli Settlers are all the same, protecting an illegal occupation and an apartheid system.

”Experience has shown that the most likely candidates for creating disturbances (and committing acts of terror) are Muslim men between the ages of 20 and 50—so it does become a safety issue.”

Act of terror is the act of revenge or retaliation, or the only way the week can express his anger against the much stronger enemy.

Act of terror is killing an innocent to terrorize the rest of the people, and that exactly what Israel did in the past ”Dir yassin” and what did they do in the near future ”Gaza war”.

Isn’t the Palestinian demand that any Palestinian state be Judenrein also highly racist?

What, why, when, I lost you here, anyhow, that is not comparable to the religion based ethnic cleansing action taking place by the Israelis.

M: ”Another empty buzzword: “the Occupation”. If you took the trouble to learn what you’re talking about, you’d find that “the occupation” is a result of the conflict, not the cause. Resolve the conflict and there is no “occupation”.

Nice, so we have a conflict, the conflict is the Israelis want the land without the people (The Palestinians), the Palestinians, want what left of their land (lines of 1967), The settlement and the Jews only roads are cutting the remaining land into bit and pieces. Israel is continuing on expanding the settlement, the roads, the wall, and building new ones on the Palestinians land, this act is called illegal occupation, so the problem is ”THE ILLEGAL OCCUPATION”.

Get the f**k out of the land and if any one attacked you, you have the right to nuke them, but end the OCCUPATION because the occupation in all of its meanings and effects is the real cause of the conflict.

Peace Watcher

Peace Watcher — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

And talking about Terrorism:

This is just for you:

http://www.wntube.net/play.php?vid=2040

Michael Davison

Michael Davison — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

Well, now we know– the agenda of any site that uses ”Stormfront” and white supremacy sites as testimonials and whose main page shows videos entitles ”The Mass Rape of White Women in America”, ”Jews are NOT White” and ”Abolition of the White Race” isn;t a site to be taken seriously.

If this is your source for ”information” then it’s no wonder you don’t know a thing.

More later, it’s after 1 am here.

Michael Davison

Michael Davison — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

PW: “Jordan is the river name, and the Jordanian nationality came to light after the British mandate.”

Came to light? What planet do you live on? There was never any entity called “Jordan” until the British created by illegally amputating 78% of the Palestine Mandate land and giving it to Abdalla I.

PW: “No one says that the Jews never had a presence in Palestine, but in your words, there has been others living with them, and we call them the Palestinians (the people who lived on the land of Palestine) so why should the Jews have all the land?? and what about the people who lived on it since the state of the civilized world?”

Even the Palestinians didn’t start calling themselves Palestinians until after the 6-Day War. The 1964 Palestinian National Charter disavowed all claims to Gaza, the West Bank and Jerusalem in Article 24: “This Organization does not exercise any territorial sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or in the Himmah Area. Its activities will be on the national popular level in the liberational, organizational, political and financial fields.”

Only after the 6-Day War did these areas suddenly become “Palestine” and “occupied”. Prior to that, the only “occupied Palestine” referred to by the Arab world was Israel within the 1949 cease-fire lines.

I’ll answer the rest when you can justify why you’re living on the stolen and occupied lands of the First Nations.

PW: “IDF, Israeli Police, Israeli Settlers are all the same, protecting an illegal occupation and an apartheid system.”

In your mind, perhaps. Just another example of your ignorance.

PW: “Act of terror is the act of revenge or retaliation, or the only way the week can express his anger against the much stronger enemy.”

Actually, the while the UN has not defined “acts of terror” definitively, other international laws and agreements have.

“Terrorism is an anxiety-inspiring method of repeated violent action, employed by a (semi-) clandestine individual, group or state actors, for idiosyncratic, criminal or political reasons, whereby - in contrast to assassination - the direct targets of violence are not the main targets. The immediate human victims of violence are generally chosen randomly (targets of opportunity) or selectively (representative or symbolic targets) from a target population, and serve as message generators. Threat- and violence-based communication processes between terrorist (organization), (imperiled) victims, and main targets are used to manipulate the main target (audience(s)), turning it into a target of terror, a target of demands, or a target of attention, depending on whether intimidation, coercion, or propaganda is primarily sought”.

Despite Hamas’ claims that every act of theirs is one of “retaliation” or “revenge”, an examination of sequences of events does not bear this out. Their behavior in the Gaza Strip against other Palestinians certainly makes this claim a lie.

PW: “Act of terror is killing an innocent to terrorize the rest of the people, and that exactly what Israel did in the past ”Dir yassin” and what did they do in the near future ”Gaza war”.”

Your definition is on track but not complete, but your example is poor. You should see the BBC documentary “The 50 Year War”. Both the BBC and Bir Zeit University conducted studies of the “Massacre of Dir Yassin” and came up with the same conclusion: there was a pitched battle, but no massacre. The “massacre” was made up by an Arab newspaper editor.

http://www.movieshare.org/movie/50-years-war-israel-arabs-documentary/144503/

Here’s an excerpt from some of the testimony:

“Hazam Nusseibeh, the news editor of the Palestine Broadcasting Service at the time, gave an interview to the BBC in 1998. He spoke about a discussion he had with Hussein Khalidi, the deputy chairman of the Higher Arab Executive in Jerusalem, shortly after the killings: “I asked Dr. Khalidi how we should cover the story. He said, ‘We must make the most of this.’ So he wrote a press release, stating that at Deir Yassin, children were murdered, pregnant women were raped, all sorts of atrocities.”” Gelber writes that Khalidi told journalists on April 11 that the village’s dead included 25 pregnant women, 52 mothers of babies, and 60 girls.”

“The stories of rape angered the villagers, who complained to the Arab emergency committee that their wives and daughters were being exploited in the service of propaganda. Abu Mahmud, who lived in Deir Yassin in 1948, was one of those who complained. He told the BBC: “We said, ‘There was no rape.’ He [Hussein Khalidi] said, ‘We have to say this so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews’.”

“This was our biggest mistake,” said Nusseibeh. “We did not realize how our people would react. As soon as they heard that women had been raped at Deir Yassin, Palestinians fled in terror. They ran away from all our villages.” He told Larry Collins in 1968: “We committed a fatal error, and set the stage for the refugee problem.”

“Mohammed Radwan, one of the villagers who fought the attackers, said: ‘There were no rapes. It’s all lies. There were no pregnant women who were slit open. It was propaganda that ... Arabs put out so Arab armies would invade,’ he said. ‘They ended up expelling people from all of Palestine on the rumor of Deir Yassin’.”

In one swoop, Palestinians themselves admit that 1) the “Dir Yassin Massacre” was manufactured by Arabs; 2) the purpose was to instigate a war, and 3) Arabs have to bear at least part of the responsibility for the Palestinian refugee issue. Sorry, Charlie, no cigar for this one—unless you want to claim that all those mentioned were “Zionist collaborators”.

The “Gaza War” was a legitimate response to the thousands of rockets and mortars fired from Gaza into Israel. From your reference to wntube and its agenda, it’s obvious you expect Israel to accept any belligerent act passively.

PW: “What, why, when, I lost you here, anyhow, that is not comparable to the religion based ethnic cleansing action taking place by the Israelis.”

Certainly it’s not comparable. One exists only in your mind, the other exists as a basic part of the PA negotiating position.

PW: “Nice, so we have a conflict, the conflict is the Israelis want the land without the people (The Palestinians), the Palestinians, want what left of their land (lines of 1967), The settlement and the Jews only roads are cutting the remaining land into bit and pieces. Israel is continuing on expanding the settlement, the roads, the wall, and building new ones on the Palestinians land, this act is called illegal occupation, so the problem is ‘THE ILLEGAL OCCUPATION’.”

The problem is that both sides would like the other to disappear. The only difference is that Israel has more or less accepted the Palestinian presence while the Palestinians refuse to accept the Israeli presence.

PW: “Get the f**k out of the land and if any one attacked you, you have the right to nuke them, but end the OCCUPATION because the occupation in all of its meanings and effects is the real cause of the conflict.”

So that’s your solution? I would expect no less from someone who uses neo-Nazi, white supremacist and other racist sites for his “information”.

Herr Goebbels erred when he said, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.” Only fools and willing idiots believe the lies forever.

Please do all of humanity a favor: don’t reproduce.

Peace Watcher

Peace Watcher — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

M: ”I’ll answer the rest when you can justify why you’re living on the stolen and occupied lands of the First Nations.”

You must be joking.

M: ”The problem is that both sides would like the other to disappear. The only difference is that Israel has more or less accepted the Palestinian presence while the Palestinians refuse to accept the Israeli presence.”

I just can’t get it, how do you say that ”Israel has more or less accepted the Palestinian presence”, how in hell this statement in correct while the settlement is keep growing and new ones are panned, and the Jews only roads are cutting throw the Palestinians land.

How this statements is ever correct while the Government of Israel planning for a second homeland for the Palestinains.

How could be this right while the Government of Israel is calling Israel Jews state.

How, and how , and how.

most of the rest does not even worse answering it, you can claim anything and you can turn the facts up-side down.

If we were in an agreement about everything, this post would not got that long.

M: ”Please do all of humanity a favor: don’t reproduce.”

I wish you could do what you say.

I have 4 millions Palestinians witnessing the Israeli hardship on them on daily bases, and it is not hard for anyone to see who is the criminal and who is the victim in this conflict.

Search Youtube on ”GAZA”, ”WestBank” ”Palestine” or even ”Israel” and you will find enough clips to prove what I am saying.

Michael Davison

Michael Davison — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

PW: “You must be joking.”

No joke. Oshawa, Canada was First Nations land long before it was “white man’s land”. Are your principles different when the thieves are White Christians?

PW: “How this statements is ever correct while the Government of Israel planning for a second homeland for the Palestinains.”

Ideally, under the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine, when Great Britain chopped off 78% of Palestine to create Jordan, that should have been the Arab state, and the remainder should have been the Jewish state defined in the Mandate. More than 85 years after that fact it’s no longer an option, so what’s happening now will be the creation of a second Arab state, making two Arab states out of about 85% of the Mandate area, and one Jewish state out of the remainder.

Where exactly is this “second homeland” you claim Israel is planning?

PW: “Search Youtube on ”GAZA”, ”WestBank” ”Palestine” or even ”Israel” and you will find enough clips to prove what I am saying.”

And you’ll also find enough clips disproving every word you say with the same search. Using YouTube or any other source that has contributors with an agenda is a guarantee for finding anything you want to support either side of any argument.

PW: “most of the rest does not even worse answering it, you can claim anything and you can turn the facts up-side down.”

No rebuttal to facts… that’s what you really mean. The only thing “turned up-side down” is the distorted version you’ve been fed and prefer to believe.